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<== Date ==> <== Thread ==>

Subject: RE: SIS3820 scaler limits
From: Mark Rivers <rivers@cars.uchicago.edu>
To: Mark Davis <davism50@msu.edu>, "tech-talk@aps.anl.gov" <tech-talk@aps.anl.gov>
Cc: Matthias Kirsch <matthias.kirsch@struck.de>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 02:32:04 +0000
Hi Mark,

I've thought about this a little more, and I realized that you can actually get better time resolution than the minimum dwell time, assuming that your signal is repetitive and you can spend some "extra" time measuring it.

This technique would require a 2-channel external programmable pulse and delay generator like the one I referenced in my previous message.

The first output of the pulse generator would be a train of short pulses that goes to the LNE.  The pusle train would repeat every 10 ms.  Using 32-bit mode and 8 input channels, which my existing driver supports, the minimum dwell time from the SIS3820 manual is 340 ns.  If the driver is changed to support 8-bit mode the minimum dwell time decreases to 220 ns for 8 channels.  The pulses in the pulse train for LNE would be limited to this pulse spacing.  Neither of these values is close to your desired value of 20 ns.

However, you could also provide a second output from the pulse generator which goes to the "counter inhibit" input of the SIS3820.  This signal could enable counting for a much shorter period of time, say 20 ns or 50 ns.  With the pulse generator you can adjust the time delay between the LNE signal and the "counter inhibit" signal.

Thus, you can acquire for some period of time with the delay=0.  Then adjust the delay to 20 ns or 50 ns and acquire again.  Adjust again to 40 ns or 100 ns, etc.  In this manner you can get time resolution down to 20 ns by doing successive acquisitions with different delays between the two signals.

This assumes of course that the signal you are trying to count is stable for some period of time so you can acquire repetitively.

Can you describe more the signal you are trying to measure: what is the frequency and how long is it "stable"?

Mark

________________________________
From: Mark Rivers
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 8:35 AM
To: Mark Davis; tech-talk@aps.anl.gov
Cc: Matthias Kirsch
Subject: RE: SIS3820 scaler limits

Hi Mark,

I'll try to address your questions.

First, you want to start a new time-sweep every 10 ms, and capture the counts for 1 ms with as short a time per point as possible.  I think the easiest way to make the SIS3820 do that is to use an external programmable pulse generator.  I have an EPICS driver for the Berkeley Nucleonics BNC-505 pulse generator. It costs about $2,000. It is in the synApps delayGen module:

http://www.aps.anl.gov/bcda/synApps/delaygen/delaygen.html

This module can take your 10 ms pulse as a trigger and output a pulse stream for 1ms with a programmable period, say 500ns or 200ns.  This pulse stream would then go to the SIS3820 which would be operated in external channel advance mode, not using the internal time base.

For what you want to do, my existing SIS3820 driver has 2 limitations that could be overcome relatively easily.

1) It only works in 32-bit mode, not 16-bit or 8-bit mode.  That limits the minimum dwell time to just under 1 microsecond I believe.  It would be relatively easy to support the 16-bit and 8-bit modes, it just requires unpacking the data differently.

2) It only acquires a "one-shot" time series before it needs to be re-armed in software.  It does not support continuous acquisition with multiple buffers streaming to disk or updating waveform records continuously.  It does allow very long time series, limited only by RAM in the IOC.  I have tested 10 million time samples on 2 input channels.  But this feature is also easy to add.  The driver currently derives from the asynPortDriver base class in asyn.  If instead it were derived from the asynNDArrayDriver in areaDetector the data could be packed into NDArray objects and any of the areaDetector plugins could be used.  This includes:
  - File plugins to stream the data to disk continuously
  - NDPluginStdArrays plugin to send the data stream to channel access clients through waveform records
  - NDPluginProcess plugin to do summing, averaging, etc. on the data
  - NDPluginStats plugin to calculate statistics on the data

My new quadEM module does exactly these things, since it derives from asynNDArrayDriver:

http://cars9.uchicago.edu/software/epics/quadEM.html

> Can someone explain the LNE (Load Next Event) concept?
>  Depending the context it is used in, it seems that sometimes it means to advance which channel's count is being incremented,
> and other times it seems to mean copy the counts to the FIFO.

There are 2 possible meanings of "channel".
1) The time-bin or time-point, which can range from 0 to a very large number
2) The TTL hardware input channel, which ranges from 0 to 31

> Is either of these correct?  Does it mean something different for different modes?  When does it apply and when does it not?

The LNE increments the "channel" in meaning 1) above, i.e. the time bin.  It also copies the counts to the FIFO when the SIS3820 is operating in FIFO mode, which is the mode my driver uses.  The LNE signal cause the SIS3820 to take the current counts in all the enabled channels, and copy them to the FIFO.  It is then effectively counting in the new time bin.

> The minimum dwell times for the "Histogramming Scaler mode (MCS with add enabled)" are longer than those for the MCS mode with the same number of channels and counter depth.  Why is that?
> What IS the minimum dwell time for counting on a single channel?

I don't know the answers to those questions, hopefully Matthias can answer them.

Mark


________________________________
From: tech-talk-bounces@aps.anl.gov [tech-talk-bounces@aps.anl.gov] on behalf of Mark Davis [davism50@msu.edu]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:57 PM
To: tech-talk@aps.anl.gov
Subject: SIS3820 scaler limits

I am new to synApps and use of scaler/counters, etc. and I have some questions regarding the use and capabilities of the SIS3820 VME scaler and its driver.

Our current setup for the project I am working on is a VME crate with an Emerson MVME3100 CPU board, an SIS3820 scaler, and a Hytec VDD2670 DAC.  Don't know at the moment how much memory the CPU card has, or if the memory card on the 3820 is larger than 64M.  The CPU is running RTEMS rather than VxWorks.

The use of this setup is currently a fairly straightforward scan (using sscan records) where the DAC output is ramped over a range of values, and a new count captured at the end of each acquisition period (dwell time) during which the DAC output is stable.  The dwell time is currently hundreds of milliseconds, so nothing that even comes close to the limits of the scaler card.

But the next step is to support the following scenario:

  *   An external pulse indicates when to start counting the number of events on a single channel.  This pulse will repeat about every 10ms (100 Hz)

  *   For each external pulse, begin counting event pulses on the one channel.  At regular intervals, capture the current counter value (doesn't matter if it is reset at the start of each period, although I am guessing that NOT resetting it is probably safer, as it would be less likely to miss an event close to the start of the next interval).

  *   Continue this for a specified number of the regular intervals, then stop capturing the counter value until the next external pulse

Basically there will be an external pulse once every 10ms that indicates the start of a 1ms long period of interest.  During that 1ms period, we need to capture the state of the counter as often as possible (minimum dwell time), but at regular intervals.

The original specs called for the dwell time to be 20ns, but after looking over the specs on the 3820, it seems that is not possible.

So here are my questions:

  *   What IS the minimum dwell time for counting on a single channel?  The smallest one indicated in the documentation says 220ns for 8 channels (using 8-bit counts, which - as the doco points out - is more than large enough for such short dwell times).  Can this be made even smaller when we really only need to count 1 channel?  Or maybe 2, if we needed to also count 50MHz pulses on channel 1 to use as a time reference?

  *   The minimum dwell times for the "Histogramming Scaler mode (MCS with add enabled)" are longer than those for the MCS mode with the same number of channels and counter depth.  Why is that?  Is it really doing an addition operation that is taking up time?  I would have thought that the Histogram mode would be the same as the MCS mode except that you do NOT take the time to clear the counts (expect prior to the first scan).  And to guard against incrementing the counts between scans, simply disabling the inputs or counting of them would do the job.  So unless disabling the counting between scans takes a lot longer than clearing them at the start of each scan, I would think that the Histogram mode would have the same or shorter dwell times than MCS mode, not LONGER!  Why is it the other way around?

  *   Is it possible to get at least the 220ns dwell time performance using the existing driver, or would I have to modify it?

  *   If modification is not needed, how do I get it do do the MCS mode with 8-bit counts and the 220ns dwell time?

  *   If I modified the driver, could I get even smaller dwell times (without changing the firmware/FPGA programming)?

  *   Can someone explain the LNE (Load Next Event) concept?  Depending the context it is used in, it seems that sometimes it means to advance which channel's count is being incremented, and other times it seems to mean copy the counts to the FIFO.  Is either of these correct?  Does it mean something different for different modes?  When does it apply and when does it not?

Probably more questions as I dig in to this some more, but any pointers, explanations, insights, suggestions, etc  would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark Davis
NSCL, MIchigan State University



Replies:
AW: SIS3820 scaler limits Dr. Matthias Kirsch
Re: SIS3820 scaler limits Mark Davis
References:
SIS3820 scaler limits Mark Davis
RE: SIS3820 scaler limits Mark Rivers

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